Episode 5: Healing Through Ancestral Memory

In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Rocio Rosales Meza, a Xicana/Mexicana seer, mother, spiritual guide, and initiated medicine woman with a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. Rooted in a matriarchal lineage, her work weaves together ancestral, Earth-based, and cosmic traditions through the Ñusta Paqo path in the Q’ero Inca lineage.

With over 25 years of experience as a healer and teacher, Dr. Rosales Meza shares how reconnecting with our ancestors, spirituality, and inner wisdom is essential for holistic healing and living in balance with all of Creation. Together, we explore what it means to move beyond conventional systems of care and return to community-centered, sacred ways of knowing and being

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Pinya Soul Podcast with Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Jessica Hernandez. In today's episode, we have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Rocío Rosales Mesa, a Chicana Mexicana, Search, Mother, Spiritual Guide, initiated medicine woman with a PhD in counseling psychology. Rooted in a matriarchal lineage, her work draws on ancestral earth-based and cosmic traditions, including the new Ska Paco Path in Dakero Inca Linich. With over 25 years of experience as a healer and teacher, she supports others in reconnecting with their spirituality, ancestors, and inner wisdom through holistic community center healing. Thank you for listening to the Phoenix O podcast. Everyone, today we have the honor of interviewing Dr. Rosales Mesa. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you do and what kind of work you provide to the communities?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yes, thank you. It's such an honor to be here. I am Doctora Rocío. I am a seer. I'm a medicine woman in the Kerao Inca lineage, and I have a PhD in counseling psychology. Though I don't practice in that field anymore. I don't have a license. And it is because I don't believe in the colonial mental health complex. And we can get a little bit more into that today. But I really share traditional teachings, earth medicine teachings to help people deprogram from the colonial world and reclaim their ancestral earth traditions.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Thank you so much for joining us today. So our first question is: how do you define decolonization in your own practice and especially beyond academia and institutional language? You mentioned a little bit about getting a PhD and kind of, in a way, pushing back on, you know, the ivory tower and everything that is institutionalized in terms of like language, such as, you know, the term decolonization.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yes. So I agree with Tucken Ying that decolonization is not a metaphor. Decolonization is something that we need to actively do. And so that means that in our daily life, we need to make choices that divest, push back on the colonial paradigm, on the colonial way of doing things. I think how I sort of can communicate it to people who maybe aren't in the realm of decolonization is in the ways that keep you separate from Mother Earth, that keep you separate from your spirit, that keep you separate from deep relationships with other people, particularly your family and your community, and from colonial capitalist patriarchy, as named by Bill Hooks as well. And so I truly see it as both an ancestral way of living, but also a new way of living. You know, I believe that our ancestors prayed us in to reclaim our ancestral ways, but also to bring forth creative ways, visionary ways for these modern times.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning that. And I think um discussing patriarchy and everything that's going on, right? How have you noticed things shifting, especially during these times? Like we see obviously more wars, more genocides taking place, and obviously sometimes, right, the root cause of that is patriarchy and also capitalism, which you mentioned. Do you think we're being pushed back on achieving decolonization as a society because of everything going on?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

These are very difficult times. And I think that, you know, for anyone listening, if they've felt discouraged or they they've been struggling, firstly, I want to say, like me too, I have those days too where it feels so overwhelming because there is so much violence, colonial violence across the world. There is mass destruction to our Earth mother. And so many marginalized indigenous peoples that are facing direct attacks on their cultures, on their ways of life, on their own life. And so if we just focus on that, it can be all-consuming and overwhelming and it can feel defeating, you know? And that's the intention. I think that's by design. They want us to feel despair. They want us to give up. And what I also know is that this is sort of like the end of that, the end of that paradigm. In my lineage and also in what I've directly received from the spirits is there are better times coming. There is a better future for us. This is the prophecy that many indigenous nations have shared, that the Gero Inca lineage has shared specifically. And so this is sort of us getting to that time. It's almost like waking us up, right? There's many indigenous peoples that have been calling attention to colonial violence for generations. And also what I see now is because the violence is almost inescapable, you can't deny it, there are more people waking up to it. And there are more people because of that standing back, right? Standing up to it and confronting it and not allowing the injustice to continue. So I do see that happening. And so I want to invite people to see the collapse, that the collapse of the colonial paradigm is happening.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

I think it's very beautiful that you acknowledge that you also have bad days, right? Because oftentimes people might think Dr. Rocill has it together. She's very grounded, and I think you are, but it's also that it does get to us, especially our mind and spirits. One of the things that you also mentioned is our relationship to land. And we're noticing that research, even though research is very Western constructed, is showing that as humans we're losing our relationship with nature. There was a recent study, right, that said 60% of humans worldwide have lost a connection to nature, and that is a huge number when you think about 60% of the human population. So, in your view, what does it mean to be in relationship with the land and also to be in right relationship with the land, right? Because oftentimes we can say that yes, we do have a relationship with the land, but that can be very extractive. Doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most adequate way to relate to land. So what does it mean in your view to be in the right relationship with the land, especially the spirit and the community that the land holds?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, thank you for this question. It's so beautiful and just makes me smile. So I view the land as our earth mother, right? Our mother earth. And I think that worldview is so important for us to begin to reclaim and for us to really accept, right, the norm that land, earth is not just a planet. She is our spiritual mother. And I think when we see the earth, the land, as our mother and as a spiritual being, then maybe we can begin to soften, right? We can begin to soften and see why we have felt disconnected from her. We can feel why maybe we it's hard for us to feel connected when we're only seeing her as the land or as a planet. And so beginning to enter that indigenous worldview, uh, she is our mother earth. And it requires a relationship, a deep relationship. It requires reverence, it requires bringing offerings to her for me to be in relationship with her. And so you're so right. I agree with you that in the Western world, even when we see people, humans, wanting to have a relationship with her or protect her, it's still very emotionally distant. It's also extractive, right? We even see that in wellness spaces of grounding with Mother Earth, but it but we only take from her energy, we don't give to her. And so for me, being in right relationship is her say acknowledging her as our spiritual mother, bringing offerings to her, talking to her to build a relationship with her, letting her know I'm I I want to remember a relationship with you, I want to build a close connection with you, I want to receive your guidance, right? And and also to bring respect and reverence to her. And I think that in us doing that, we can begin to, I believe, shift the world, right? Because everything for me and and for indigenous peoples, and and you speak of this as well, it all starts with Mother Earth and our relationship to her. And I believe that colonization, the harm that happened through colonization, happened to our spirits, to our mind, to our bodies because of that severing from Mother Earth. That is why we feel spiritually lost. That is why we feel not enough sometimes. That's why in the Western world, as many achievements as people have, as advanced as they are in their career, they still feel lost and not enough because they they never severed that original cut from colonization, which is from our Mother Earth. So I think that's so essential to us having a better future, but also for us to be well.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I now that you say it, right, it is true. In many wellness spaces, we are extracting from Mother Earth also, right? Where, you know, they're even the guide or the teachers say just, you know, ground yourself in Mother Earth, but they never mention what is the offerings or the gifts that we can provide to her. And I think that it's very important for you to mention that, right? Because it's something that I have noticed, even you know, doing yoga or going to meditation, it's not centering ourselves in a way that is reciprocal, right? It's only like, oh, let's ground ourselves in nature, but we never are asked to also think of how what we can give to nature. And that's very important to mention as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, and thank you for for sharing that. And I think that piece, I also want to call people into like that fact that you gave that 60% of uh, you know, humans feel disconnected from like nature. And when we hear things like that, the truth, I think it's, you know, we may also feel sort of like shame, right? Like, oh no, I'm not connected to nature. And what I want to invite people into is that this is not your fault. This is the colonial paradigm by design. When we are disconnected from Mother Earth and disconnected spiritually, we are easier to control. We are easier to program, easier to manipulate. And so it is not your fault. And also recognizing that there is work to do, right? There is inner work to do for me to deprogram from this harmful paradigm that not only harms the earth, but harms me, harms other people, right? Especially the most marginalized black, brown, indigenous people. And so I have to divest and learn deprogram from that. And also it is my natural state to be in connection with Mother Earth. And going back to when I introduced myself of why I no longer practice in colonial Western psychology, you know, I also want to say I don't disagree with the mental health field. There is so much need. There is so many people suffering. And so I think it's about the way that we help people. And I think it's also about therapists decolonizing their practice. That is essential. But what I also, what I didn't agree with in Western psychology is that much of what is pathologized and diagnosed, depression, anxiety, I think a lot of that stems from the colonial violence, the colonial separation that we've experienced, also not being connected to Mother Earth, right? When when we live in urban environments, right, quote unquote, when we're constantly at our desks or constantly on a screen, our mind, our body is giving us signs like something is wrong because it's not our natural state to be on a computer, to be, you know, on a screen. Our natural state is to be in nature, to be with Mother Earth. And so I think if more people did that, developed a deeper relationship with Mother Earth, we would see less depression. We would see less anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, thank you for mentioning that because oftentimes I even see myself like having more anxiety being in Seattle, right? Versus I get sometimes to travel around the world, even to go back to my homelands or even go as far as the continent of Africa working with, you know, local or indigenous communities, and my anxiety is gone, right? And people will assume that you should be more anxious because you are traveling by yourself, you're alone in a foreign country. But that is true, right? It's it's that in a way we are trying to survive in the city, and oftentimes there is, as you were mentioning, marginalized communities, right, that have to deal with more things than others. And oftentimes is that survival mode that makes it hard for us to go back and connect to nature or hug a tree when you're in constant fear and facing a lot of violence.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yes, absolutely. And so I think it's right, it's it's yes, reconnecting to nature, reclaiming to earth, you know, reclaiming earth wisdom, but also dismantling colonial capitalist patriarchy because that's where most of the violence and harm comes from.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

And you touch a little bit about this, but how does your training as a psychologist perhaps, you know, in some capacity intersect with your role as a medicine woman? Or do you think it has taught you what not to do in many cases?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yes, thank you. I think it's a little bit of both, honestly. You know, I think being trained as a psychologist, also being a former professor, so living a long time in colonial academia did teach me a lot about what not to do and how not to learn, how not to teach, right? Um, how not to live, because, you know, it was about 10 years that I had, you know, after my PhD, 10 years in academia. And the reason why I left that world is because I developed a health, a health um problem. I developed a chronic disability. I had a health collapse. And then I was fired from academia. And then I was rehired and fired and rehired, and I finally said, no, I'm not doing this anymore. And so, yes, it has taught me a lot about how not to live because I was so unbalanced in that time. It was just about work, it was just about researching, you know. I I feel sad for myself as a doctorate student and as an early career psychologist and as an assistant professor. It was just so unbalanced, you know, and I didn't know any different. That was a norm for me. That's that's how success was described by my mentors. This is just what you do to be successful, right? And so, yes to that part and also what my indigenous elders, teachers have taught me, because there was a time that I almost rejected everything from academia, everything, you know, of my training. But my elders taught me that I still needed to value what I learned and because it was given to me in my spiritual path to help people. And so I also see how my psychological training helps me to understand people and help people, to experience healing, to experience wellness. And as much as we want to reclaim our ancestral ways, the truth is that those of us that live in the Western world, we still very much exist in that paradigm. As much as we reject it, right, we are still programmed in our mind. So this is lifelong work that we have to do. And so what I've seen is that even while I share indigenous medicine earth wisdom, it has to come from the mind first for people to then enter their spirit, right? In the Western world, that's just how we've been programmed. And so there's still utility to that, that way of training that I received. And as long as it's it's decolonized and it's balanced, I think that's the key.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Wow. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Because oftentimes our bodies kind of tell us something is not aligning with our minor spirit. I often see that, right, as somebody who also, I mean, I'm still in academia, but not fully to the point where you know I'm a full-time professor. But I love teaching the students. I think students they are very interested in unlearning or relearning sometimes, but it's still that politics, right? That often it doesn't sit aligned with our bodies. And my next question is like you mentioned this already and in some of the responses, but you often speak of unlearning the colonial mind, right? And I think I love how you phrase that because oftentimes, right, people, as you were mentioning, right? It's not somebody's I guess you have to free yourself from the guilt sometimes that comes with unlearning, especially the colonial mind, because if there's guilt, right, people can in a way push away unlearning or other voices. We saw that a lot, especially with the anti-racist movement that was taking place, right? Where people were being called racist, and as a result, they're closing their minds to unlearning their colonial mindset. But how does colonialism live in the body and not just in the thought? And what do you mean when you tell folks you have to unlearn the colonial mind this one?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah, I love that you introduced guilt here. And I would also add shame, you know, a lot of people feel shame and guilt when they realize, oh no, I've learned these really harmful things, or I unlearned or I learned the colonizer's ways. And the colonizer is a really harmful, destructive legacy, and I want nothing to do with that. And so I when I teach my students, I teach them that we must have both compassion and courage to unlearn the colonial mind, compassion with ourselves, that this is not my fault. This is something that was programmed without my consent, right? Like I never said yes to this. And our ancestors that were colonized, they never said yes to this. And I think that's especially key for Black, brown, indigenous peoples. Our peoples were violently programmed, right? Like this was not, you know, I'm gonna give you these papers and this is how you learn our colonial ways. There, this was by force. This was through violence, destruction, death, genocide. This is how it was programmed into us. And so compassion for ourselves, compassion for our ancestors, really seeing that this was something forced onto us. We never chose it. And then also courage, courage to face there are ways that I'm still colluding with that are not the right way. And so let me have also courage to see that, right? I may feel guilt sometimes. I may feel shame sometimes. For instance, I may feel shame that I'm not in right relationship with Mother Earth. There was a time that I also wasn't in right relationship with her. I didn't grow up with a lot of the things that I know now. And so it was important for me to also be compassionate with myself. This was not by my doing. If I I think all of us, if it was up to us, would have kept those ancestral ways, would have kept those earthways. And so compassion and courage is important. And when I speak of the colonial mind, again, I'm speaking about the ways that we've been taught to see ourselves as separate from the spiritual world, right? That the spiritual world is something that's demonic, right? Um, that that is dark, right? Something to be afraid of. Also, Mother Earth, right? That if you do, if you bring offerings to Mother Earth, that's um that's brujeria or witchcraft, right? Rather than these are our ancestral ways. To constantly be in hyperproductivity, that is also part of the colonial mind. To feel guilty resting, to feel guilty slowing down, to engage in predatory ways, right? That the more, the more material wealth I have, the more things I have, that that means I'm more successful, right? Rather than measuring success by what we give to the collective, how well my spirit is, how deeply connected I am to the web of life. Life and deeply connected I am to the people around me, my community, right? So these are all parts of the colonial mind. So seeing Western ways as superior, right? And indigenous ways as inferior, indigenous ways of knowing, spiritual ways of knowing as inferior, that are often devalued, right? The colonial paradigm taught us to do that. Of course they did, because if they teach us, right, what is success or what is the way to live, and we devalue indigenous ways, we're more likely to go along with it, right? So we're easier to control. And so that is part of the colonial mind. And your question about how does colonization live in the body? I just take a deep breath with that question because I think it lives in the body through grief. I think it lives in the body through trauma, tension that we feel in the body that we can't explain. Like I can't explain these headaches, or I can't explain why I feel so tense. It can't explain why sometimes I feel pulled under by sadness and grief or why I get so angry, right? This feels like it's not even mine. I think those are remnants of colonial trauma. And so that's how for me it lives in the body.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Thank you so much for mentioning that and also for reminding us, right, that we have to be compassionate to ourselves because oftentimes we want others to be compassionate, right? Especially when we're talking about everything going on in the world. But sometimes we're not compassionate even with ourselves, so we cannot necessarily display that compassion towards others. And I think that we're seeing that a lot, right, with the wars and and all of those, the graphics that are being shown on social media, because you know, we have the power of technology now, but people are becoming you know emotionalist to some of the stuff that they're seeing, right? And I guess one of my other questions is in your work, where does joy fit in, especially when we're talking about decolonization and healing, right? Because oftentimes we associate it so much as like anger, we associate it so much as like detachment. But joy has been one of the reasons why many of our communities have survived and in a way overcome all of this grief that you mentioned as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

So, what how does joy fit into the decolonization and healing process in in your in your Yeah, I so appreciate you bringing this into the conversation and especially as we you touched on the numbness that people feel in witnessing all of the violence. And so, you know, I think firstly I want to say that a lot of people, especially if you're connected to any community work, any activism work, joy is almost like a bad word, right? Like wellness is almost like a bad word, right? Like you're betraying the movement if you're taking care of yourself or if you're laughing and it if you're having fun, right? And so this is part of the survivor's guilt that often people feel when witnessing so much genocide, when witnessing colonial violence, when coming from communities that are being attacked by the colonial government and the colonial paradigm. And I've experienced this myself too. I think this is one of the things that I've struggled with with most of my life, and especially post-PHD. I felt such immense survivor's guilt because I came from a community where where it was a you know a dangerous place to live. Most people didn't um pursue higher education. And that's not to say because they weren't intelligent. It's just they weren't given a chance. You know, nobody believed in them. And so um I felt immense survivor skill, like, why me? You know, and and then I felt like a huge duty to give everything back, everything back to my community, everything back to my family. And I think that's also why I experience a health collapse because like I didn't take care of myself. What I know now, 10 years after my collapse. So now I'm 20 years post-PHD, like my goodness, I can't even believe it. That blows my mind sometimes when I think about that. Almost 20 years. And so what I know now is that joy is essential. Joy is essential to our movements. Caring for ourselves is essential for our movements. Wellness, dancing, music, right? You you mentioned that a lot of our ancestors survive through cultivating joy and it's through music, through dance, right? Through laughing through the hard times, you know, um, something that my mom, yo soy mexicana and Mexican born in the US, but soy mexicana. And she says something that losicanos se ríen de todo, you know, all of our misfortune, you know, and so we laugh through the hard times, and that helps us, you know, navigate the hard times and overcome the hard times. And I think that's so important for the newer generations to remember that it is essential, right? It's not something that that we can negotiate with. Like this has to be part of our practice as well, to allow joy, to allow wellness for us to make it to the future, for us to be as well as we can. Because what I know from my lived experience is that we can only live in servitude for so long. And when I say servitude, I mean just giving, giving, giving. We can only live that way for so long. And then it will come at a cost to us. And so it is important, I believe, joy to our movements, joy as a decolonial practice. It's also how we resist.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning that, right? And often reminding the younger generations to also be joyful because yeah, it is it is true, right? We are in a way programmed overall to think that joy is like we train the movement or we train the cause when in reality it's not always required for us to be serious or to be direct. And and oftentimes, right, we see even in leaders that they adopt these ways of leadership that are not joyful or caring, or they have to be like, in a way, dictators in in that sense, right? And this is why in in corporate America we're seeing how people are, I think I forgot the term they use, but it's like either ghost quitt quitting or like quiet quitting, or they just want to leave. And obviously, in academia is also uh in itself a corporate um institution. So thank you for for mentioning that.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah, and I think what you're naming is patriarchy, right? These ways of leadership, that is patriarchical leadership. And so, you know, this can be a whole nother conversation. But what I will say is I believe to truly decolonize, we must reclaim matriarchy. Because sometimes in doing decolonial work, as you said, we people continue to collude, recreate the same ways that they say they're against. And that's because we are not reclaiming indigenous ways, which includes reclaiming matriarchy until we have matriarchical leadership, right? Women, matriarchs at the center, teaching and leading. I don't think that we'll truly make progress, right? So I believe it's indigenous elders and matriarchs that must be leading us for us to truly be able to learn how to value life, how to nurture, how to be in deep relationship with our, you know, with humans and also with with nature. I think that's so instrumental.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, thank you for for reminding us of that, right? Because oftentimes, yeah, we do need our matriarchs to be leading, because even as women, right, sometimes we can't adopt those patriarchal leadership tendencies that are not necessarily conducive of our communities or the people that we serve. And this kind of relates to the next question, right? What does it mean for you to be a good ancestor, especially in this time?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Thank you for that question. It feels so beautiful. I think to be a good ancestor means firstly being a good steward of your medicine. And what I mean by that is the knowledge, the gifts that you have been entrusted with, that the ancestors gave you, that the spirits gave you, that you have a responsibility to those gifts, to cultivate them, to nurture them, to share them, right? And to also not just profit for them, from them, right? To share them. Um, and that I deeply believe this. And this is why I teach so much for free, because I believe that this is knowledge that everyone should have. I also have a business, and so, you know, that is important too, to nurture ourselves at the teachings that I offer, um, the courses that I offer. It is also how I provide for my family. And so it's that balance, but it's also important for us to share them generously with the collective for those that are seeking. I also believe to be a good ancestor means to think collectively, um, to think about those that are marginalized, that are the most vulnerable, to think about the children, to think about our descendants and what kind of world are we leaving them. You know, I think it's so easy to fall into despair and I just don't even want, you know, I don't want to do this anymore and I want to ignore it and I want to have nothing to do this, to do, you know, with this anymore. And I'm so tired from activism work. And we can have those moments, and it's important to recover, right? Because burnout is is high, but also to come back to it because our descendants, you know, as a mother, that for me is so important. It's what keeps me, you know, in the hard times. It's the prophecy of, you know, my medicine lineage, but also it's my child who doesn't allow me to give up. I have a responsibility to them. And so thinking about our descendants and what kind of world are we leaving them, what kind of legacy, what kind of practices are we live are leaving them?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah, that is very beautifully said, right? Especially as you're mentioning that you are thinking of the future generations and in your own lineage. And obviously it's it's hard, right? Sometimes to give a lot of free labor because we're still living in these capitalistic societies where we have to pay the bills, we have to pay the mortgage, the rent, and it's not like um back, you know, in our ancestral race, right, where everything was community-based, communal, where there wasn't necessarily any fees or or currency in in the sense of like dollar bills and things like that. So I guess my next question, and it kind of relates a lot to the youth, right? Especially with a lot of our youth caring for climate change and being advocates for climate change. What role does spirituality or ancestral knowledge play in responding to the climate breakdown that our commun you know, our global society and our mother earth is currently facing?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I think spirituality is is so important. It has to be, it is part of what we must reclaim. I think that it is so missing in the modern world. I think a lot of people rejected spirituality, have rejected spirituality in modern times because of colonial religions. And what I say to those people is that spirituality existed, pre-existed colonial religions, and that we are spirits first. We come from the stars, right? As spirits, and then come into a human body. And when we are done with this human life, we will return to the stars, but we are spirit first, and so we must nurture our spirit, especially if we are facing the violence of colonization, especially if we are facing the destruction of Mother Earth, because that's going to break our hearts, right? Sometimes it will feel overwhelming. And so we must nurture our spirit to be able to do this work effectively and to do it in a way that doesn't slowly kill us, because that happens a lot too, right? Chronic illnesses that many, you know, and I want to say this too. Many of the people that are doing this work are women, right? Our women are queer people. And so I just want to name that because women and queer people are constantly being targeted by the colonial paradigm, right? So we're doing this work on top of all of that. We're facing colonial violence. And so we develop chronic disabilities, chronic illnesses, we experience burnout because this is the other thing. We're not just doing it as part of our work, we're also doing this nurturing work in our families. And so at one point or another, we're gonna feel like this is too much. And so for us to be strong and well, we need to nurture our spirit and we must nurture our body and our mind. There's only so much that we can do. We are not robots, right? Like as big as our hearts are, as much as we care about these things, we're not robots. And so, spirit first, because that's where we receive our strength. That's how we're connected to creation, to our creator, to the great mother. And when we're connected to them, we come more emboldened. We're more courageous, we're more loving. We can show up more fiercely, but also our body and our mind because we are human.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Thank you for naming that, right? Because it is true. It's mostly women and queer folks who are doing this work. And oftentimes there are other layers, right? Like even if you bring this to social media, one of the things that we have noticed is that women, and this has been data, right? And queer folks are facing more digital violence and also facing other types of violence, whether it be gender-based violence as well. Um, one of the things that I wanted to ask you is if someone is just beginning the journey of unlearning and and reconnecting, especially to their spirituality, in a way decolonizing their mind, body, and spirit, where should they start?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

This is such a good question. I think it's first acknowledging that we are programmed, that we are programmed, that we do have a colonial program operating in us. And so for me to reclaim spirituality in a good way in right relationship, I need to unlearn the colonial ways. Because if I just move to reclaiming, I may disrespect indigenous communities, I may disrespect indigenous ways by taking practices that are closed, by taking practices that require apprenticeship, right? I I may be extracting from Mother Earth. So I first need to deprogram from the colonial paradigm. Secondly, I believe you have to develop this deep relationship with Mother Earth. And so it's almost like reintroducing yourself to her, bringing an offering to her. And when I say an offering, maybe it's flowers, maybe it's a song, right? And truly speaking from your heart. I am, you know, I am here as your daughter, and I am here remembering that you are my mother. And I want to remember a relationship with you. I also want to ask for forgiveness for the times that I have not been in right relationship with you. And I just want to come to you and develop a deep heart-to-heart relationship with you. Please accept my forgiveness. Please guide me. Please open my heart, open my mind. And so I think it's starting from there. And also, um, I think a lot of people like search for teachers, right? And there are teachers there. But I think it's also about preparing yourself as a student. Like, am I even available to learn as a student? Like, am I going to respect the teacher? Am I am I open to receiving these teachings in a good way? And so I think that part is important. And the last piece that I'll share is is to honor the calling that you feel. Because as much as I say preparing yourself as a student, I think sometimes people wait too long because they think like, oh, I want to do this the right way. You know, I want to have all my decks in an order. And so they wait too long. And I think that's also part of the colonial paradigm, right? Part of the colonial programming operating in them. Like I'm afraid of what I'm gonna find out, right? And so it's just to answer the calling that you already feel you feel called because your ancestors and mother earth are calling you home. And so just taking that leap of faith as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Thank you so much for mentioning that. And you also offer courses, is that correct? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yes. Um, I have the prophecy school, which I founded and introduced this year, and much of my teachings are shared there. And so I offer decolonial teachings, how to deprogram from the colonial paradigm, how to not hustle and grind, right? Which is another big aspect, how to decolonize our work, decolonize time, how to reclaim our spiritual ways and right relationship and how to deepen your relationship with Mother Earth, how to also learn other ways of knowing, more indigenous and spiritual ways of knowing and to truly value. And so thank you for that question. If those that are feeling called, inviting them to learn more.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Thank you so much. And our final question, I think you kind of mentioned this, right? Where we have to, as a spiritual leader, right, you have to walk a certain fine line where you don't want to disrespect certain communities. And oftentimes in in our Maya nations, we're often seeing how the cacao ceremony has been in a way packaged in where it's sold, and cacao ceremonies actually never existed in our communities. It's just that cacao is just a drink that we will consume during ceremony, but um now it's is being sold as a spiritual. So, my final question is like, how do you hold accountability within spiritual or healing communities in a way that's remains rooted in love and responsibility? And I ask that because you know, oftentimes, even as indigenous peoples, we might call that out in a way that it's not rooted sometimes in love or responsibility because we are angry. Obviously, something that is allowed, especially when you're seeing part of your culture being commodified. So I wanted to ask you that question.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Thank you for this, and thank you for your awareness of this. And you mentioned this earlier as well that you know, we saw this a lot with the anti-racism movement and the ways that people were being called out. And so I agree with you that there is it is important to honor the anger that we feel sometimes, right? It's important to honor that anger, but also it's important to not stay in that anger because it makes us more prone to conflict. Also, you know, when we're angry, cortisol increases in our body. And so it also leads to illness as well. And so, yes, to honor the anger, but to not stay in it. Yes, to calling out people that are doing, you know, mass harm and that are abusive. Yes, right. I think there is a place for that. But the large majority of people, I believe, are not causing harm intentionally. I think truly what I've learned over the years, it's a function of the programming. And so they don't know that they're causing harm because harm is normalized in the mainstream in the Western world. And so if we truly want a future where we are going to make it, and I'm especially talking about the colonial United States, right? Like there is, there are so many forces that are that are eroding our communities, that are eroding our coalitions, that are eroding our allyships. And that is, of course, they want that so that there is not this, you know, collective power that dismantles their colonial government, that dismantles the colonial paradigm. And so if we truly want collective power, we need to come from a place of compassion. We need to come from a place of, I also want to say patience, right? Like let's also be patient with each other. Let's not, you know, be quick to judge and quick to cause conflict. Let's try to understand each other. Let's try to understand that that we're facing, you know, impossible conditions. And sometimes we are going to cause harm. And and sometimes there will be conflict. And let's not be afraid of that. Like let's make space for that. And let's come from a place of being truly rooted in our heart. That I want to work this out. Not not I want to, you know, I want to call you out, right? But because there's a difference there. And I think people can feel the difference. And I think, of course, this is a function of patriarchy, right? Patriarchy is very much focused and colonization on punishment, right? Let me punish you and let me see what's wrong with you instead of let me try to understand you, let me be patient, let me be compassionate. And so I think there needs to be more space for that as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Thank you so much, Dr. Lucia, for mentioning that because I think when you're younger, right, it's easier to be angry, to be more reactive, to call people out. And I think that as I'm growing older, right, I'm realizing that patience and compassion is also not necessarily something that we just deserve, but other people's also deserve. And and we're learning that too. I'm personally learning that as I'm getting older and and becoming an and you know an older adult, very easy for young folks to fall into that trap, right? Where it's it's still colonialism that teaches us that punishment is what people deserve. And I think that oftentimes we don't see that, right? So it's very beautiful that we're closing this by also, in a way, calling us in to decolonize the ways that we think punishment is something that people deserve in in that sense, right? Because sometimes it harm, obviously, it's not something that we can debate, but sometimes it's it's an unintentional, not intentional. But I wanted to thank you so much for being here. And uh to close the the episode, I wanted to ask you what is one lesson you would like folks to take from either this conversation we had or something that you want folks to unlearn as we move forward in in our society and role?

SPEAKER_01 45:31

I feel called to speak to Black, Brown, Indigenous peoples and to remind them to offer the sacred reminder that they are a sacred divine being. I know that there's many messages in in the world that makes us feel like there is something wrong with us, that we are not smart, that that we need to change our ways. And I want to offer the sacred reminder that we are divine, sacred beings, and that we come from lineages that are powerful, that carry deep medicine and deep wisdom, and that this is the time to begin to reclaim them. This is a time to learn to value those ways because it's what's going to bring us into the future. And so remembering that this is in your blood and bones. And so answering that call of your of your literal DNA.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Thank you so much for joining us, Tulli.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Thank you so much. It's been such an honor to be here with you. Thank you, thank you.