When We Are Kin: Rethinking Reparations, Land Back, and Justice

Welcome to the Piña Soul Podcast with Dr. Jessica Hernandez.

Today’s episode features a powerful conversation with Dr. Kyle Mays, an Afro-Indigenous writer and scholar whose work explores U.S. history, urban studies, race relations, and contemporary popular culture.

Dr. Mays joins us to discuss themes from his forthcoming book, When We Are Kin: The History and Future of Afro‑Indigenous Solidarity, a timely and deeply needed examination of shared histories, resistance, and coalition-building across Afro‑Indigenous communities.

The book is set to release on May 26, and it is available for pre‑order now. This conversation invites us to rethink kinship, solidarity, and the futures we build together.

Let’s get into it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

And it's a bit more of a pre-order now. This conversation invites us to rethink and shift solidarity and the features we've built together. Let's get into it. So hello, Dr. Mace. Welcome to Pinus Seoul. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Good also. So I was really excited to read your book. And one of my first questions is like, what inspired you to write your book when we are kin?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

It's sort of like a uh sequel, if you will, to an Afro-Indigenous History of the United States published in 2021. Because when I was giving talks, people had asked me, So, Kyle, what do we do about something like reparations? What about the land back movement? And I kept hearing that over and over and over. And so I decided, well, um, and it just so happened, it became increasingly a part of various public discourses as well. So, um, I was able to spend some time in Scotland on a Fulbright, and that's when I was able to really write the bulk of this particular book. And I wanted to provide at least an analysis of the meaning of land for black and native peoples within the US, and to think about what reparations, its limitations, and what it could mean going forward for black and uh indigenous communities, because there's often an assumed alliance and form of solidarity, which often is not quite there historically in ways that we might imagine. Even though it's something certainly we believed here, but history is important to help unpack those things.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And where do you think that assume alliance comes from? Like what drives that narrative in the United States?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I think it's because people say, oh, enslavement is foundational to the US, the development of the US, American capitalism, and so forth. So is the dispossession of indigenous peoples and ongoing colonialism here. And so they're like, oh, we're both oppressed, therefore we should be in alliance. And I think people don't sit with the why. And again, I believe in these things as an Afro-Indigenous person. But you have to sit with why should these communities be in coalition with one another and really sit with it. And I think we don't do enough of that reflecting and unpacking the history of the moments when people did try to align. What were the limitations of that? And then why should we align today and what could that look like going forward?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

That's that's a very interesting take. And one of the things that you also mentioned in your book is this landback movement, as you discussed, right? And also the relationship that the black community has with land. Can you describe that a little bit more, especially for our audience who may not be familiar with blackness and also land relationships and ties?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, so brief boring history here for the listeners. So I always described uh people of African descent as indigenous peoples who were their ancestors were forcibly kidnapped, removed from their indigenous homelands, and yet they still maintained some forms of indigenous practices. That could be quilabismo in Brazil, that could be what we call Ibanic or African language, that could be very spiritual practices as well. Um, and as uh one of my good friends, Bria Baker in her book Rooted, points out, and it history confirms this too, that a lot of African peoples would bring seeds with them, even kind of under their hair. And so planting, and we know that uh enslavers, the European enslavers, would deliberately find certain African communities and peoples to go plant certain things such as rice, etc. So they're very deliberate around these actions. And so people, African peoples in this case, understood land in a sense. They're forced to toil it, but that doesn't mean they completely eliminate their understanding of land, vegetation, ecology, and so forth. Now, it's disrupted in a sense, but they have to reimagine and reassert a sense of home and belonging and belonging to that land. Again, they're not indigenous to what became the United States, but they were forced to create a sense of home and belonging here, anyways. Um, and so landback initiatives, uh it can be described as a political movement and initiatives also tied up with tribal governments as well. So people are advocating, and I'll say in a grassroots sense, advocating for land returns to Native peoples. Now, since the beginning of colonization, Native peoples always tried to keep their land and also reclaim land. It's always been an ongoing issue. And so you have various activist organizations, including the Indian Collective, who created a sort of political framework or initiative, but it's also happening increasingly in city governments as well. So in Berkeley, California, last year, in relationship the Orlando people of the Cadley Foundation, were able to purchase land, which is around $20 million. It's not a lot of land, but it was a very sacred part too. So people can purchase land. Some city governments, uh for example, Tucson, Arizona, have given land back. I think that they should just give land back without conditions as well. Um and universities certainly should do more to give land back, especially with land grant being a land grant institutions. And that's a whole other conversation. But it's like, and you know, at least during the Biden administration under the first Indigenous Secretary of the Interior, Deb Holland, various nations received anywhere between a few hundred acres to several thousand acres in land that was uh illegally stolen by government entities as well. So it's like two spectrums to understand anyway and back.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Wow, that's that's very interesting because, like, as an indigenous Mayan woman, right, coming from the Landback movement, it wasn't necessarily as peaceful of basically somebody deciding to give back the land. We know with the Civil War, the armed conflict, which eventually was a genocide in Central America, right? Our people used violence in a way because the government was ignoring them. These monocultural corporations had the power and authority to decide that that land was not going to be given back to them and they were gonna introduce these plantations. So do you think that that kind of, I wouldn't necessarily call it violence tactics, but right, the wars and the reclamation of land should also be always peaceful, or is there room for people, especially indigenous peoples and black people in the United States to learn from these land-back movements, especially from Latin America?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Well, they should learn, well, they should learn a great deal about, I mean, those initial conflicts with Native peoples in the US were violent. I don't and I think we're not using the word violence negatively here. We're using it as a tactic to hold on to land or to retake land or reclaim land that was theirs in the first place. And so um, Native peoples always been diplomatic, whether that was through violence, always trying to negotiate. And when that didn't happen, they're like, well, hell, we'll just reclaim this land through violent means, even in Latin America. And I think a lot of black and native communities could learn about that history, should learn more about that history and ongoing struggles for land, because oppressors aren't just going to give you land back in a way that's consistent. Like, that's just not history, that's not been reality. But you have to be organized, and this is why, in this instance, black and native peoples connecting their struggle for land and understanding their relationship to land is so important because you can have a violent outburst, but it's not uh politically organized in a logical and community-centered manner that's meant to reclaim land and center the land in that process. And that's where things can get murky. So I think oftentimes while black people have a certain remembrance of land, it's a responsibility to also do that in conjunction with indigenous people. Because, you know, it sounds strange, but indigenous peoples has to be centered in that understanding of land as well, especially um in the US.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

And just to go back to one of the important points that you made, right, is like this intersectionality between blackness and indigenity and how you promote that, because I mean it's true to the level of understanding, right? Especially indigenity. As somebody who has worked in East Africa, indigenous peoples in Africa have this deep knowledge, oftentimes indigenity. It's also a political identity that is not in a way, I would say, validated by governments. But going back to the context of the United States, why do you think blackness is not as embedded in indigenity discourses or discussions? What is that one driving force that's pushing for even indigenous communities to accept blackness as a form of indigenity, especially given that many Latinos or Hispanic folks, depending on how they choose to identify, want to claim indigenity, but when it comes to blackness, it's not discussed or welcomed in spaces.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, I mean, I think it's predicated on two things in the US, especially. They want to continue to erase, and it's a predictive colonialism. They want to continue to erase indigenous peoples to justify colonization and again online colonization. And so blackness, it's like a forever outsider trying to integrate them to be exploited for labor. Even though, of course, slavery happened to indigenous peoples first, actually, and then the Americas. I think it's kind of forgotten. This predates the United States as a nation state, but the European colonizers when what became the United States were uh deeply engaged in uh the enslavement practices of native peoples. Blackness is was seen as something that was outside, and therefore they tried to completely in another form erase and dispossess those people of their identity, of their cultures, and therefore even Native peoples can say they don't have any indigenous cultures or practices. And that has led to strange things of some black communities trying to assert that they are indigenous to the Americas. Mind you, I didn't think this, I thought this was a completely online thing until I met some of these people in real life, and I was like, Y'all really believe this stuff. Um, you know, they came before Columbus, that sort of thing, even though I know they never read that book. And so there's a lot of misinformation happening out there, unfortunately, uh, between blackness and indigenity, and it's morphed into some strange ways in a contemporary time. But I still think uh even going to the reconstruction period, you know, four million formerly enslaved people become free. This is after the Civil War uh in the reconstruction period, so from 1865 to 1877, four million people recently become free. What do you want them to do? And they often, some of the only things they understood about American freedom was land in the capitalist project. And so they adopted that because they're trying to create a sense of belonging, and they understand if you owe the land, it should be theirs. And even the United States government, when William Tecumseh Sherman is burning down the South, and he's like, we'll give you four deacons of a meal. Sure, black people have heard this before. He's inviting them into the into he's inviting them into the United States as settlers, and he actually uses this language. Now come these settlers within the United States. Now, I don't think black people understood exactly what it meant to be a settler, but they understood what owning land meant, it meant freedom and some form of democracy because they saw uh many of the European Americans enjoying that freedom. Now we have a lot of re-education going forward to actually try to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah, that's that's amazing. And when reading your book, right, you also mentioned the No Dapple movement that took place in Standing Rock and how the Black Lives Matters movement was a big component, a supporter of that movement. Do you want to describe it a little bit more for our audience as well?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, there was a um like a delegation from uh Twin Cities who were trying to support the No Dapple movement against the Dakota Access Pipeline and the building of that. You know, this is there's like preceding things, the murder of Trayvon Martin, like all these murders of black people, and then the Black Lives Matter movement kind of exploded during that time period. What's fascinating about that initial movement? I remember they had a whole platform on their website, which you cannot find now, um, supporting indigenous rights throughout on their very platform. And then you have that chapter who went to be in support, and I thought it was a beautiful moment because there's been examples in the 80s and 90s a little bit, but not as clear about black people supporting indigenous land or race. I mean, there's you know examples here and there, but it was very public in a way that hadn't been done probably since the 1970s, and so it was a fascinating time, and we need more of that, a consistent level of black and indigenous solidarity.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Thank you for sharing that. Another important topic that you mentioned, I think it's at that introduction of your book, right? You mentioned how you were serving in this commission, and as the only black commissioner, oftentimes any racial tensions or lack thereof representation from other communities of colors were targeted towards you. Why do you think this is the case? And also, what do you want to tell folks, especially when it's easier, right, for us to complain or target the only person of color in many commissions, especially black or indigenous, when in reality, right, we should be targeting the larger commission that is not conducive or representative of many communities of color.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, so this was fascinating. So um there's so many layers to that. The I was on commission to be a part of the Santa Monica's Land Back and Reparations Task Force. And I saw the pitfalls from the beginning, but you know, academics always think you can just go in and like contribute. And I just wanted to contribute to the hards record, which we did draft, and the city later just did nothing with that anyway. But I saw the tension of people who were claiming to be Mexican peoples who are claiming to be indigenous. Now, of course, there are living, breathing indigenous peoples who are from the settler colony of Mexico, etc. And then they would change up their identity to say we're actually Mexican. And it wasn't confusing to me, it was just interesting how the identities sort of shifted depending on the political point they were trying to make. And I understand the distress of academics, I get it. Uh it's a long history of academics taking the credit for labor communities who they exploit and take. And I made it clear, I was not trying to do that. I'm not a leader of anything, I'm just trying to do this report led by the city council of the city of Santa Monica. And then, you know, folks would say actually Mexican peoples experienced the most racism in Santa Monica historically. This was a direct role, by the way. Um, and you saw the divisions between black people, and there were some black people telling Tonga people that they're not actually indigenous, that black people are actually indigenous peoples. And you see the pitfalls of trying to advocate for something like reparation of the land act because people have this scarcity mindset that this is there's only so much a government entity can do. And I think there is, in a sense, us something like violent revolution um, if you will, is important in any social movement because you need alternatives to just relying on city government. It imploded eventually, and it was identity politics dominant. People were not actually listening and trying to understand black and indigenous issues and how the same structure reproduces unequal outcomes for all of us. And they did not want to see that. They wanted these crumbs from the masters' table, and they wanted us to just be loud and not do the hard labor and work it requires to build a sustained form of solidarity, especially repertory justice. They just didn't want to do it, they just wanted things to leave so.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

So, in this example, you're basically discussing, right, how systems often create competition rather than collective abundance, and I think that that's a colonial project that was created, right, to also divide our communities. And I wanted to get your insights on what narratives or structures do you think drive this and how can we move beyond it to, in a way, decolonize this division and actually move towards being more collective, especially as you title your book, right? When we are kin.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I think folks they just accept capitalism and colonialism as is. They see they're so tied up with it. Even something like what we call on the stage tribal sovereignty. I just think often it's a neoliberal project as it's focusing on individual entities and rights. So when Nixon in 1970 users in the era of red power movement, um, he described he's basically saying this makes sense for a capitalist government because you can look at tribes as corporations who support individual rights and who just want to engage in capitalist enterprises. So even now, I think most tribal forms of tribal sovereignty, but when people say support tribal sovereignty, I'm like, well, which version? The version that's so deeply tied with American capitalism and sees the destiny so intimately tied with American capitalism, the future side of America going on as is, or the one that's engaged in decolonial practices that seeks to dismantle the colonial and capitalistic structures that continue to harm all of us, especially the most vulnerable uh black and indigenous peoples. I mean, poor working poor people on Skid Row in Los Angeles and so forth. And I mean, at least for me, like people just will accept these things as natural and normal and don't question, you know, even on the Santa Monica thing. They had, I think it was like 200 or something acres of the airport, formerly Santa Monica Airport. And Tonga people initially sent them a letter, and then we met with uh a city planner uh around that project, and she just thought, oh, we never received this letter. Maybe they did it, who knows? But it just shows it just shows you that when you're in the business of challenging colonial systems, even something little as trying to get just a few acres of land for, in this case, Tonga people in Santa Monica, they were so resistant and just completely ignored it. Um, you know, reparation is something when people advocate for cash, it's kind of uh feeds into this capitalist notion that just give us money, it'll go away. Versus fundamentally challenging the capitalist order to receive various forms of repair. And even this is a small example of the city of Santa Monica that didn't want to do that. Like we put in the harms report again, which they uh have done nothing with, I don't think they will, that there's no amount of money that can repair the harms done to black and indigenous communities in the city of Santa Monica. Uh no wonder they didn't do anything with that, because you have to also return land, because there's clear documentation of how colonialism worked. And they're not gonna do that, but you know, being a co-writer thought it was important to put it in there.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Especially Santa Monica, right? Like it's such a driving force for tourism. Oftentimes in California, right? As somebody who grew up in California, California is kind of seen as this like state that everybody wants to move towards or for because of Hollywood and all of this glamour that's tied to California. My question, my next question kind of ties to your position as a professor, right? You are known to oftentimes push against colonial projects or systems within academia. I wanting you to, or I want you to describe a little bit more of what that journey has been for you as an Afro-Indigenous professor at such a prestigious university like UCLA, and also how do you find joy in disrupting those systems that are embedded in prestigious universities such as UCLA or in academia in general?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Well, I first want to say my approach to academia, shout out to black women. So it was Dr. Janine Snitherman, who's the scholar, who was a scholar of academic, I'm sorry, African American language or ibonics, they called it back in the day, and her fantastic book, Talking and Test. The language of Black America, published in 1977. She was always authentically herself and gave me the confidence to operate in this very white supremacist, male-centered colonial space. Like it it was because of her that I'm able to do what I do. And she gave me the knowledge how to navigate it, how to deal with uh the institutions, because her assumption was always this is a colonial, patriarchal, a supremacist system. And sometimes I always wonder why my colleagues don't just start there. Certain things happening are not a surprise. She told me how to navigate. You're at UCLA, which is a major research university, and you have to publish. And you have to write. But I would not have been able to do any of that without her support and then subsequent mentors along so often black and native communities and people get settled in academia because it's a very violent uh space. It's a privileged space. Like I I don't want people listening to understand. Like there are a lot of privileges that come with this job, but it is a very violent uh space uh for people who are trying to produce knowledge. And you have to do these things with community, without the communities, and you have to do things for community. And I think you know, we can get stuck in an ivory tower, not care, just do things for yourself, become a careerist, make money, and then go live your life, etc. But you have to be responsible to communities as best as you can uh and be centered in community, and that could be a range of things. It could be within academia, it could be communities you work with, but fundamentally you also have to care and not exploit people. If you know academia can be very exploitative. Your job as a black andor indigenous person is to not exploit people and act like the colonizers within these colonial institutions, which some people do well, some people don't.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, thank you for sharing your insights. And you're also the author of four or five books. Is that correct? Is it five? Yeah, five books. How do you find joy in writing and what is your approach that you take when writing the book? Like what is it that you think about, reflect on, especially as your books are very tied to Black histories, Afro-Indigenous histories that are often not easy for us to because I, you know, as an author, right? Sometimes when we write about our stories or our lived experiences, it's not the easiest thing to write about. How do you approach your writing in that regard?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Writing, and I try to write every day. Some things will never see the light of day at all, but I just like the practice of writing. Two, um, you know, it's vulnerable writing in general and then publishing it. And as you were saying, it's more vulnerable to be a black or indigenous person and also sharing family stories, personal stories, etc., and putting them in a book for the poet to read, which is even more vulnerable. And so to try to find joy in that, I I mean, this sounds strange. Like I know my job is writing in academia in a sense, but I don't write for academia. I don't even care if they read it. Congratulations. Like, you don't have to read my stuff. My goal is to write for, you know, any community member I may know or not know. It should be able to pick up my book. Maybe you gotta look up a term really quick, a couple terms. But she'll be able to pick up my book and generally know what's happening. That's that's always my goal. So I just that's who I that's who my audience is when I'm writing. And it gives me such joy and pleasure to write in that manner that they can pick it up, sort of see themselves, if they read it, they're like, oh, that sounds exactly how Kyle would say that. For me, that's the biggest compliment. And, you know, as long as the people I'm in community with like, I don't have any feelings whether someone likes my work or not. They can hate it, they can love it. As long as the people I really rock with like my work, appreciate it. Even if they have criticism too, you know, for me, that's what matters to me. Um, good, bad, or otherwise, you have to stay centered on again community. If those people like the stuff that you do, you're doing something good. If they do not like it, you need to really re-evaluate what you're doing, and you probably need to be in community a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, that's a great way to address it, right? Because oftentimes in academia, especially if you go through a university press, you have to appease to a certain audience. And I have noticed that in your books, you go through a trait press and you're very real, right? It's not like you're cutterlined or like being more gentle with some of the messaging that is often not accepted, right, in university presses. And my next question kind of ties to that, right? Like a lot of the things that you write about are not conventional in the sense that they're not the norm, they're not as widely accepted. What message do you have for folks who may not agree with your ideas, especially folks who are in some of your communities, right? Whether they're indigenous, black, Afro-Indigenous, like what is the messaging that you have for them to take some of the messages you write in your books, especially this one when we are kin, to make sure that they accept it somewhat and are open to unlearning or relearning the messaging that you have.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, I mean, you you know, and you do the, I'm sure you do this too, like even before you write a book, when you give when you're in the midst of writing it and you give a talk, you're like prepping ideas or like testing ideas out on people. And so I think it was last year, maybe, maybe two years ago, giving some talk. And it's older black gentlemen, I was critiquing um what I call mainstream operations movement, those who are advocating for cash payments and the average wealth of white Americans. He was feeling, he was yelling at me after the talk, which I don't have any feelings about that whatsoever. And he came up to me, he was like, you know, our ancestors were enslaved and this and that. And I said, I know, but I'm holding the line that without a critique of capitalism and colonialism, the reparation movement is trapped. He stormed off, but I think at some point we have to hold the line up. You know, you can't advocate for getting the average wealth of white Americans without a critique of American capitalism at all. It doesn't fundamentally make sense, especially at a point where our ancestors were capital. And then upon whose land, you know, people say we built a country. Okay, whose land were you being exploited on? That's a fundamental part of the project as well. Folks say America should have to pay descendants of slavery in the U.S. home. And like the United States has disrupted all sorts of people and nations around the world. They're like, France should have to pay Haiti. I'm like, the US has intervened in Haiti, I think, four times that we know of, by the way, Central American so-called war on drugs. They destabilize all sorts of indigenous communities, right? So they owe people, I don't even know if it's money, but something. Like they owe people something, at least an apology. And, you know, I hope people will take that seriously and think beyond the limited colonial notions of education around, for example, reparations that they may like just see, and to think beyond the nation's thing in that regard, and try to imagine what can life be like beyond that, which is why I try to advocate for kinship. In my tribe, saying the Chippewa, 97 other peoples, we have a kinship system on Bear Clan, protectors and medicine people historically, and so it just determines your responsibility within that community. And so, what would it look like for various nations to try to adopt, for example, why peoples into their communities based on their own kinship model? We know historically they created clans for diplomatic reasons of warring with other uh tribal nations, other Scots people who do have clans. What is your clan? So they've done this before. Why can nations not do this again?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

We know the times that we're living, especially in this country known as the United States. What is the message that you have for the youth, especially given that there is a lot going on that this country is leading, whether it be environmental persecutions, genocides, wars that they are playing a role then? What message do you have for the youth to ensure that they don't lose hope, especially as we're moving towards liberation, decolonization, and social justice movements and as well?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

If you have a future, but you have to play an integral part in that future, and you can't wait for us, you know, old heads, if you will, to change things. It's up to you to start training those things now. And I always assume young people are doing things anyways, so you know, just because I don't know about Dazine, it's not happening. You have to shape the future that you want to see and that we all deserve to live in. And I think it's up to elders, I guess I'm getting to um status now. You know, I have a responsibility to censor those young people's voices and listen to them and to take your idea seriously. And I think that's incumbent upon our generation, and even older generation. They might critique them, and those young people are gonna make mistakes, but the mistakes are where they can continue to learn, and our job is to support them. For young people, you know, not voting, but there's many things to do besides voting, work in your community and the big and small things. Uh, I remember just not too long ago, I think I was on campus, and it's like Arab Auntie just was like, hey, I need you to carry my bags. I didn't know, I was just walking about a mile and a half off campus tour bus shop. And what it reminded me was, you know, back in the day, people used to carry in the neighborhood, carry an elder's groceries, your friend's parents brings home, etc. So, in other words, what are the ways that we can carry each other's groceries and also mentor young people for the future? And I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Thank you for sharing that and also acknowledging, right, the mistakes are something that they cannot avoid. I feel like working a lot with the youth, especially in the era of social media, one mistake can be detrimental, especially given the hate comments that sometimes they receive or the messaging that they receive. So, in a way, right, technology is making it harder for the youth to understand that mistakes are a part of learning as well. And I guess my final question to end this episode is like for folks who pick up your book, right, when we are kids, if there is one message you want folks to come from, you know, or get from reading your book, what would that message be?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Meet in person if you can and building community. And we need to read more books. We really need to, and I give, you know, you can watch documentaries, music, whatever. We need to read and meet together and have those hard conversations. Because without that, I fear we won't build a sustained forum of solidarity. And even quickly, this Santa Monica thing. One of the things we never did was meet in person. Uh we were supposed to, and then it didn't happen for various reasons. And I was like, it's just different meeting someone. Then you can figure out where to okay, maybe they didn't really mean that, you know, when they're talking these uh online conversations. So meet in person as a community and continue meeting.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Well, thank you so much for your time, and this was our episode for Pinaso.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Thank you.